Difficulty, Challenge, and Where to Draw the Line

[NintendoLegend]

Although I could preface this question with a 1,000-word piece on various examples and iterations on the NES alone, and will elaborate if asked, basically the issue boils down to this question:

What, specifically, is the difference between a challenging game that is very good partly because of its challenge level (Contra, various Mega Man titles, etc.) and a difficult game that is very bad because it is too difficult (Silver Surfer, perhaps Hydlide, etc.)?

Then there are titles that draw a fine line between too hard and "Nintendo Hard," titles like Ninja Gaiden, Ghosts 'n' Goblins, the original TMNT cartridge, Battletoads, Double Dragon III, etc.

We know that some games are intentionally difficult (hello Solomon's Key) and designed that way, while others are hard due to horrific flaws in play control, or other factors. But what is the difference, exactly? Where do you draw that line?

Thoughts?

[metatron]

When you put it that way, the line exists in the player's mind. Otherwise, I think it's easy to see that some games are well-designed and programmed and they're just tough games. Others are broken. I think it boils down to what a player can do with the game, some things might be broken in one's favor.

[flailthroughs]

The big difference to me is that I will eventually come back to games where it feels like the fault in not getting past an obstacle is mine. Bad controls aren't my fault, so they're a deal-breaker.

The other important thing to me is not to feel like the game is going out of its way to frustrate you. I can best demonstrate what I mean with the version of Mortal Kombat II on the Midway Arcade Classics series for PS2: You reach a point where the game becomes utterly impossible; the computer-controlled character will have a countermove ready for absolutely anything you try to do as you're doing it or even before. It's absurd and unplayable.

So yeah: the things that make a game too hard, to me, are bad controls that make traps unavoidable, and games that feel like they're singling you out for punishment.

Hydlide, like the super-frustrating Demon's Souls which I played recently, is a game that feel like it's trying to force you to play a specific way. I can deal with that in limited amounts- setting up the rules specifically to frustrate the player, which is what the Demon's Souls producers admitted to in various interviews, is only one shade away from the game being out to get you. It has to be a really good game for me to put up with that anymore.

It comes down to personal taste, really, but in terms of intentional difficulty there really is a difference between challenging and punishing a player. I don't hand out my money to be punished anymore.